(Mongolian) throat singing and tenses

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Alzin on October 18, 2011 at 6:03pm

Ah, i'll post it again here:
Cool, can't wait for that discussion. As for the jaw's harp: My experience is, that my throat feels quite relaxed after some playing. But I don't know any techniques, so I'm probably not doing it "the proper" traditional way, if there is anything like that. I really should upload something...

Permalink Reply by Envel on October 18, 2011 at 6:48pm

I deleted my message which wasn't on the forum to avoid doubles.

Alzin : Do you mean that your throat is tense or relaxed ? It seems odd to me that your throat is relaxed after playing but why not. Maybe you find relaxed positions while playing. What kind of jew's harp do you play ? Those you put on the lips (like vietnamese ones) or on the teeth ?

Permalink Reply by Alzin on October 19, 2011 at 9:40am

Yes, I got a vietnamese Dan Moi. I vary my throat while playing, too, but I don't have tension there the whole time, sometimes I seal my mouth cavity and manipulate the overtones just with the tongue. My theory was that the soundwaves somehow massage the throat, I don't know...
Before I got my Dan Moi, I had one of those you put to your teeth, same effect.

Permalink Reply by Dan Zimmermann on October 20, 2011 at 7:17am

Throat irritation or discomfort is something we have discussed at length in the old forum, I recommend searching for keywords in here as well, because search results are linked to "khoomei.com" forum. All the info therein is valid and useful.

Not much came from our discussions other than the comforting knowledge that the discomfort will subside eventually.

I'd like to point out a couple of things:

- I don't know enough about the differences between Mongolian and Tuvan throat singing, but I know what both sound like and that they both use "pressed" voice to enhance harmonics. The Tuvan styles use varying degrees of constriction and pressure, but neither gives me "cramps" in the mouth throat or tongue. The cough reflex is much much more prominent, I'm sure everyone will agree.

- You say that you have a teacher or mentor? Does this person train with you and instruct you or do they just teach. I mean, can't you ask them, or is your teacher in a book or online only? Either way, I'd love to see where you learned from.

- I find the vibrations of the harmonics and drones soothing and pleasant feeling. If I ever feel uncomfortable or too tense, I stop and pause. If I had not gotten over the initial discomfort after a couple of weeks, I would have given up and I would not be in my 24th month of training now.

Perhaps this is a uniquely personal "condition"... do you have similar issues elsewhere in your body or during other activities?

We will figure this out and get you singing for joy soon, I am sure.

A bientot!

Permalink Reply by Envel on March 21, 2012 at 2:16am

Hi everyone,
long time since I didn't post... I feel some free time to think about it now, so let's do it !

To answer you Dan :

- I don't know either about the differences about Mongolian and Tuvan throat singing, I think I heard someday that Tuvan's style sygyt use to press the throat upper than his equivalent in Mongolian's style, isegere xöömij.

- I had a trainer, Johanni Curtet, and did a stage during one week with Tserendavaa in Mongolia. Nowadays, I moved from Brittany where Johanni gives his courses. However, I stopped singing while I was still in Brittany. He recomanded me to see voice's specialist to do a diagnosis. I did, my vocal drones were fine. So I saw a specialist who re-educate the way you speak and so on. He told me that it was muscular tenses. But I didn't continue to be treated by him, cause I moved... Since, I haven't see any doctor that for. Just a man who treat physical tenses, posture issues with manipulations.

-

Perhaps this is a uniquely personal "condition"... do you have similar issues elsewhere in your body or during other activities?

N.B. : I also play transverse flute and jew' harp and wondered if there weren't any link with those tenses...

Actually, I also have tenses while doing those activities.

Consequently, I began this year to care about being tired while playing instrument or sing, making simple exercises to warm me up, making stretching, observing the way I take my breath, the way I use my muscles to push the air ( in my neck and in my back essentially), the way I press my throat, the way I put my tongue (I can continue the list but I think you understood the main idea ;) ). I recovered my xargira and the pressed tone. I tried a few time to make isegere xöömij with the same pressed voice than before, and it's almost there but I can't sing a long time.

To sum up : I think I'm on the good way to fully recover my abilities. I'll now try something more : swimming !

Permalink Reply by Dan Zimmermann on March 21, 2012 at 6:04am

If you experience muscle fatigue when trying to "hold still" your vocal musculature and have to stop singing because of it or just can't get the sound anymore after singing a few minutes, try yawning with your lips shut. It's a little trick Mongolian throat singer Sundui says helps "reset" your vocal tract and diaphragm. I do it occasionally.
A little advice: moderate to high levels of chlorine in public pools wreak havoc with your breathing. Do avoid throat singing IN the pool. I tried once and the chlorine irritated my throat so that I couldn't sing without pain for several days.

Permalink Reply by Envel on March 21, 2012 at 1:51pm

Thank you, I didn't know the little yawning tip !

It's impressive... I didn't know either that chlorine could do that ! I'll be careful in the pool and I'll keep in mind : "just swim, just swim, just swim, ... " It'll be difficult but I think I can do it :)

Just to had a fact : I did sing really often. Sometimes, several hours a day without a lot of breaking... May I say : " I was young, naive and thought I was indestructible " :)

Have a good day and thanks again !

Permalink Reply by Alzin on March 21, 2012 at 9:29pm

Oh, I forgot about the yawning-trick! I'll use that one more often now, I'll see how much it helps. Also, I should do a more structured warming up.

Permalink Reply by Dan Zimmermann on March 21, 2012 at 10:41pm

I actually don't "warm up", I just have a go at it when I practice... No structure, most of the time I don't even sing a song. I'm way to spontaneous to structure or plan anything, I make decisions rashly and in the moment. Whenever I have a few minutes, I practice. I hardly ever have more than 5 or 10 minutes to sing, so warm-ups are really all I do, in a way. On rare occasions I spend 20 minutes and sing every song I know how to sing, unless it doesn't sound right, then I give up and do something else. Today, I spent 2 minutes doing Kargyraa, but it didn't sound right, more like a growly gargle, so I gave up and made a beat-skeleton on my step sequencer, played with synth patches, and before I got anything worth showing together, my free time was already up. The whole thing took less than 60 minutes.
Even being that short on time, I'm not dissatisfied. It's a great hobby doing what I do, even if I expect to never perform or record a CD.