Sound and Color

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Permalink Reply by Christopher on October 15, 2011 at 11:08pm

Alexandre - recently I came to the same conclusion regarding sound structures. I created a soundtrack (made of binaural beats and other pulsing tones), which was connected to "relative C" at 200Hz, and had a specific note and amplitude structure inside. And for me - it sounds "red" (although the cover is blue). By the way - I'm synesthesia person too, but about synesthesia I learned, that there are patterns and patterns (-;

My silver-grey 1.8 percent too... (-;

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Permalink Reply by Skye Løfvander on October 15, 2011 at 11:26pm

Thumps up for your two cents and the rest of it!
Your violin is wonderful


Alexandre Letellier said:

Hi everyone,

I don't think the color/note correlation can be pin-pointed in such a definite manner ...

1- because the western system of notation is fixed to the A=440hz while in the Indian system you can play a "C" starting at any frequency as long as the consecutive notes are arranged along the same intervals. Meaning that it's not the frequency that matters but the position of the note within the scale. So in effect you can play "RED" at any freq. I think that the desire to pinpoint a note/color to a number that a machine can somehow determine is a very western-mindset attitude, and music/color/art might or might not be subject to this kind of need to "fix" things with numbers.

Ok more simply put, I see sounds since am a kid, actually I would see colors for pain too. I would tell my mom it hurts yellow-brown for an indisgestion. Cuts feel more like red with white/silver highlights on it :). And to come back to the topic, I think that the actual colour of a note is in accordance with its position in a scale, not it's freq... If not it would mean that C major starts by red but D majors starts by orange (or whatever) ? Doesn't make sense... And any sinestetic (sinestesia) person will tell you that... :)

2- It's not just about pitch/freq of the fundamental (which is how we define a note) . As you all know here, a note contains all the notes in it through its harmonics, this means that a note (whatever color you want to assign to it) also contains the whole rainbow , right ? So my point here is to say that depending on how you play a note (a C let's say) you can make it lean toward any color given which harmonics you favor in the way you produce it... Especially with bowed strings where it is the easiest ... then winds, then plucked strings where it is the hardest to change the colour of a note...

Ok that was just to say, that this colors/notes relationship is great and real but it is really personnal and too subtle to pinpoint in a scientific way, like C=X Hz ......

My two cents ...
(Btw 2cents is blue ;)

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Permalink Reply by Alexandre Letellier on October 16, 2011 at 6:43am

Thx Skye, I appreciate :)

I just thought something that might throw some random scalar waves into the discussion : CYMBALS

Now cymbals on a drum kit aren't supposed to be pitched right ? But they do have a definite color. I remember comparing the hues of a friend's cymbals. He had a crash that was dirty red, and the Chinese crash was blinding white with a bit of grey noise in it. The little splash cymbal was changing color if you hit it hard or softly.

So what about color in non pitched idiophones ?

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Permalink Reply by Planetware on October 16, 2011 at 12:23pm

The octave-analogue correlation between tones and colors is not fixed to the name of tones (= notes) but to the frequencies.
The tuning fork of W.A. Mozart has about 421 Hz. The octave-analogue color is orange. Mozart called 421 Hz as A. Today A has about 440 Hz. 40 Octave higher the color is yellow-orange. If a composition of Mozart in A is played with 440 Hz the comopsition has not the right color and Mozart woukd say, why you play my composition not in the right note.

You know I talk about the "octave-analogue" way to combine tones and colors. Surely there a many ways leadings to Rome. Now we have to clarify if we want to go to Rome in Italy or in Indiana, USA - Sorry, just a joke ;-)

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Permalink Reply by Christopher on October 16, 2011 at 2:21pm

Dear Alexandre - it depends on, whether you expect constructive explanation or you just want to diminish/reject any explanation. To compare - we have a funny situation in our national politics; our biggest oppositive fraction is always against govermental solutions, no matter what the goverment wants to do. They are just "against".

Relativeness of explanation is conditioned by the fact, that we live in tonal reality, that for us - is a concrete and stable thing, while over the time - this "stability" varied and changed. I was born in "440Hz reality", and thus - for my neural network - this reality is a reference point for me so long, as I'm saturaded mostly with it (most of regular music here is tuned to 440, and I'm a "statistical listener" so to speak). Relativeness of explanation can be used to synthesize greater and structured picture (with capability of producing statistically measurable solutions) or to trash everything "just because". I always look for patterns, and if can't find them (or find contradictionaries) - then I check how I can widen my perspective in order to get some relative yet reference points.

With colors of non-pitched instruments. Generally almost each kind of properties (frequency, relationship ratio - both on frequency, harmonic content and amplitude, vibration, ADSR and so on) - can be splitted/translated into "colors". There is always a perceptual cue, which connect statistical perception to certain root, which generates then harmonic structure of the signal. But with colors you will deal also with shades, intensities, brightness, textures, spatial depth, and so on. Try with singing bowls for example. Although they can be tuned at any of root frequencies, their interlal haracteristics - is non-harmonic. Yet singing bowls "predictable" produce colors. Why? I guess the neuroscience of cognitive perception have an explanation for that too (-;

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Permalink Reply by Alexandre Letellier on October 16, 2011 at 3:36pm

I just think that colors are an illusion, so is pitch, and to make things worse numbers as well :) so trying to match two illusions through a 3rd illusion can only be another refusal by the western mind to accept the illusory nature of the universe...

But I respect the fact that you guys are having fun with this and that it is the expression of your love for music...

This being said, it is obvious that you are not willing to discuss the eventual futility of the very topic, so I'll let you guys carry on :)

Peace

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Permalink Reply by Christopher on October 16, 2011 at 3:49pm

Even illusion - requires energy to exist.
Even vacuum - seems to have a structure, made of geometry and angular momentum in motion.

What is the difference for you - between "eventual futility" and "objective relativism"?

We can talk just for talking and having fun.
Or - we can talk about practical applications of something that shows measurable and statistical value - also having fun.

The funny thing with our greatest national political fractions is - we have both of them (goverment and opposition) - on one, the right side. (-;

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Permalink Reply by Alexandre Letellier on October 16, 2011 at 4:18pm

The objective relativism of colors/notes is exactly what I mean and Skye also I think. It reside in the relative position of a note in the objective pattern of the scale...

Now imagine an alien race living on a planet revolving around a super hot blue star, or a red dwarf... Obviously their perceived color spectrum would be different... So, are you looking for a correlation that is only valid for Caucasians born within the last two centuries or something more profound ?

Btw even on our planet colors are not fixed but cultural (i mean where red ends and orange starts varies among cultural groups and so on) , and so are notes except in the western NOTATION system. In effect, even in western classical music, if you play a C at its exact frequency EVERY time you are sure to kill musical expression... And thanks to this because if not computers would play better than we do already :) So again, I apologize, but I really can't fit the rigidity of numbers to something as alive as music...
Or may be I don't understand what you are trying to do...

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Permalink Reply by Christopher on October 16, 2011 at 5:35pm

Why should I imagine aliens if we speak about humans and modern modality and western world related? Do bats or bees listen to music of humans? Is the bat market of bee market - our destination market of perception? Did you know, that "non-physical people" (dead or never born on Earth or not yet born here) - perceive humans as "light beings" in similar way that we perceive them? (-:

I think we speak here about less than last century if we want to focus on current modality. Sure - it is interesting to know and understand how it went through different centuries of human perception and pattern cognition, but... we live here and now, and we - are the destination target. Plus minus 2-3 generations I guess? With colors is like with languages. Nowdays - english became international, although this is not only one language on the world, and not fixed for everyone. We adjust to that international pattern in order to co-operate on compatible exchange platform, within some parameters.

As a soundworker and sound engineer now - what interests me - is the is the fact, that when you deal with signals, then you deal within their structure - with the "harmonic series" and "notation tuning systems". But when I work with living sound - I start with numbers, and then - seek for proper shifts, widths and variations. Rigidity is the nature of theoretical structure, while living sound is dynamic, but within structural range. That is my understanding of numbers. You want me to let go of numbers. I don't play piano or viola, rahter with soundspaces themselves. Why don't you let go of your instruments and come to the world of electronics instead (-:

Cheers
(-;

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Permalink Reply by Alexandre Letellier on October 16, 2011 at 5:50pm

Ok I get it :)

You are trying to find a correlation between sounds and colors and you only care that it'd be valid for your cultural/temporal identity of a 20th century Caucasian ...

If I had understood that before I wouldn't have bothered to intervene, my mistake... sorry

Have fun
Bye

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Permalink Reply by Christopher on October 16, 2011 at 6:38pm

...valid for temporal identity of maistream of humankind - yes (in practical terms). But with Caucasian and cultural - you go too far or not in right direction. Neuroscience of human perception is independent from culture and race, although it includes differences dependent on living/acoustic environment (multisensory and metasensory, repeatable learning patterns available). So to speak (-;

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Permalink Reply by Alexandre Letellier on October 16, 2011 at 6:57pm

Mainstream humankind ??? huh ?

Where I live 1.2 billion people DO NOT assign a fixed pitch to ANY notes... Plus they allow 17 different micro-tones for each notes... And the neighboring country also contains 1.3 billion people who's ear is not like the one you describe.... The whole Arabic system allows up to 21 notes per octaves...

What "mainstream identity of humankind" are you talking about ? SURELY YOU MEAN THE WHITE 20th CENTURY MINORITY RIGHT ?

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