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In this forum might be also a title ”Singing..."

I could ask this direct from Rollin or Wolfgang but maybe somebody else is also interrested.

If we filter overtones in mouth by tonque, we get low overtones from large space and high overtones from small mouth. Makes sense, longer waves fit in large space. But when I filter overtones by opening mouth, I get high overtones by opening my mouth wide open and low by closing it. Understand? What is the physical explanation?

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What is the physical explanation?
- do you know the answer, Sauli ? I don't know it and hope someone else know it :)

The answer is really simple.
You have to consider the formants theory, by which the differences among vowels is fixed by F1 and F2 (1° and 2° formant) in relation to this image;


as you can see when you pass from /a/ (opened mouth) to /u/ (closed mouth) F1 and F2 decrease their frequencies because the tongue's movement creates more space on the oral cavity, between the tip of the tongue and lower teeth.

On one cavity technique we can produce overtones linked with F1 (in some cases F2 too), while on two cavity technique the movement of the tip of the tongue touching the palate creates converse volumes between F1 and F2. So if F1 increases, accordingly F2 decreases, and vice-versa.

Hi Jens, I'm going crazy cause my tinnitus...

Jens Mügge said:

What is the physical explanation?

- do you know the answer, Sauli ? I don't know it and hope someone else know it :)

You may look at the cave under your tongue as a Helmholtz resonater which rises it's resonance frequency by decreasing it's volume and widening it's opening - and vice versa.
Usually sygyt-like overtones are obtained by a combination of 2nd and 3rd formant. In this case you combine multiple movements, one of which is the lip opening. By closing your lips you lower the 3rd formant and enhance lower overtones. It's better to keep the lips more closed in sygyt styles, though, because otherwise your 1st formant joins in and disturbes. If you sing so calles one-cave-techniques lip opening becomes more important because you then combine 1st and 2nd formant.

Hi Marco,
where does this theory with the converse volumes in two-cave-techniques come from? My own investigations show a significant lowering of the 3rd formant when rising the tongue tip to the pallet. Not effect on the first formant.

kind of video respose ;-)

Thanks for responding and specially Daniels video, which did not give answer but great ideas. And no, Jens, I am still looking for it. Formant-theory is good, but I have to try it to get full understanding. Thanks again.



Wolfgang Saus said:

Hi Marco,
where does this theory with the converse volumes in two-cave-techniques come from? My own investigations show a significant lowering of the 3rd formant when rising the tongue tip to the pallet. Not effect on the first formant.

Hi Wolfgang, this is part of a more complex phoniatric theory, advocated by Dr. Franco Fussi, Dr. Franco Ferrero (dead, RIP), Dr. Mauro Uberti, me and others. In any case you know the rule: large cavity developes low resonances, small cavity developes high resonances. Teorically the 3rd formant is in relation with lips, the first with mouth opening and oral cavity, the 2nd with oral cavity. So moving the tip of the tongue we change the resonance of F1 and F2; while one increases its peak, the other one decreases its peak. Sorry, I know I wasn't clear enough, I need more time to explain better but you know, my tinnitus doesn't allow my brain to stay awake/reactive for too much time

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